One of my interests is writing and information management software. Perhaps using the term “interest” is misleading, as I am sort of obsessed with these types of applications, and have been since I got my first computer, one of those early Compaq “portables.” Around 1989, I bought a license for an application called GrandView. GrandView was a DOS program that combined outlining, word processing and task management. It had some features that were cutting edge at the time, some of which remain unmatched in modern software.
In this entry to Welcome to Sherwood, I want to explore my favorite features of GrandView, because many people have never had the chance to see GV work. So let’s begin:
On its face, GV is a basic single-pane outliner. That is, you can view all of your information in a single window. (Outlook, for example is generally a three-pane outliner, in which you have your list of folders in the tall, slender left pane, your list of e-mail headers in the upper right pane, and the content of any single e-mail message in the lower right pane.)
Here is a screen shot of a basic outline created in GrandView (I’m running it on VM Fusion on my MacBook — thus the status bar along the bottom of the screen):

Basic Outline in GrandView
Notice that headlines I.A, II.A.1, and II.A.2 have little down-pointing arrows at the end. This indicates that there is a document associated with those headlines. We can view those documents in a dedicated document window:

Dedicated document window in GrandView
Document view is essentially a hoist to view just the text of the document. (Note that the odd cursor blocks in this and other screen shots are relics of using GrandView in emulation mode in Windows XP running on my MacBook.) I always liked this feature of GV, because it is like switching to a dedicated word processor to work on this one section of your outline. But one of the most powerful features of GrandView is the ability to see the text of your document inline with the rest of your outline:

Document text viewed "inline" in the GrandView outline
An important point here is that this text is not a separate headline or node. It is directly associated with a headline and can be viewed inline (as above), in its own window (as in the second screen shot), or collapsed and not visible in the outline (as in the first screen shot) This visual flexibility is a powerful feature for writers, because it allows you to switch from a focussed view of your writing to the big picture. You can work on getting each section of the text right, then make sure the entire work flows smoothly with appropriate transitions. Two-pane outliners (such as MyInfo and Ultra Recall, for example), force you to keep your writing in separate, discrete blocks. To this day, no other application has matched GrandView for providing this combination of powerful outlining tools AND single-pane, inline text.
But GrandView had other impressive features, ones ahead of their time. First of all, it had all the outlining tools you could ask for, including hoisting, collapsing, mark and gather, and others:

GrandView provides a host of outlining tools
It also provided advanced meta-data capability to help you organize your work. Here’s a basic list of tasks:

Task list created in GrandView
But now I want to organize this random list. I’ll start by turning on the Category Display (see the bottom of the screen):

GrandView with Category on
Date and Priority are default categories that automatically attach to each headline. I created the category “Role” in order to separate my tasks into my three roles: Work, Home and MIC (the latter being a nonprofit organization I volunteer with). I can now fill in the due date, priority and role for each of my tasks. But to help me with this, I can have GrandView automatically assign a Role category based on a rule. Here I’ve created a rule to assign any headline with the text “MI” to the Role MIC.

You can have GrandView automatically assign categories
Once I’ve assigned data to all the categories of each headline, I can now quickly filter those categories in the Category View:

GrandView filtering all headlines with Priority category set to High

GrandView showing me all the headlines with the category Role set to MIC
Those of you into the GTD method of managing your day, can instantly see how GV would be an excellent way to manage your daily tasks.
Switching to Calendar View, I can now view tasks based upon the day they are due:

GrandView in Calendar View
And when I want to get an overview of the date, priority and role for all my tasks at the same time, I can turn Columns on. Category data for each headline is then displayed in columns (which I can select) on the right:

GrandView with Column View turned on
It shouldn’t take too much imagination to see that GrandView’s incredible flexibility made it an exceptional tool for all kinds of work. When I was using it daily (up to about 15 years ago), I created an outline I called Mission Control. Here I kept a list of my major projects, daily tasks, and reminders. I created individual outlines for each of the projects, and used GV’s linking ability (common now, but pretty radical for DOS) to create hot links from my Mission Control to the project outlines. Some projects were task/milestone heavy, some were writing heavy. I could manage it all in GrandView.
GrandView was abandoned by Symantec at the dawn of the Windows age, and has yet to be matched. EccoPro by NetManage had outlining with powerful meta-data, but did not have GrandView’s document view nor its powerful outlining controls. And, it too has been abandoned (though it still has a dedicated group of users). Scrivener on Mac has its scrivenings view, which allows you to combine separate documents into one long view and edit them. But Scrivener has a weak outliner, and no customization of meta-data fields. NoteMap was a fairly powerful single-pane outliner, but it didn’t offer document view or meta-data or true inline text — plus it appears that development has ended on this application, as well. OmniOutliner has user-definable meta-data and columns, as well as “inline text” but this latter feature is very weak. You could manage tasks very well in OO, but I don’t think you’d ever try writing anything of any length.
Of course, GrandView had its deficits. It was only developed for about five or six years. It never had the advantage of being a Windows application, and existed before anyone had ever heard of the Internet or e-mail. All I can do is imagine how terrific this application would be if developed today with the same imagination, consideration for the end user, and innovation.
Hi there, I currently use MS Word documents in Outline view and have been looking for an outlining app that I can use both on my PC laptop and on my iPhone, when I came upon your post. Looks like GV had some of the features I’ve been looking for but can’t seem to find anywhere
Thanks for the info!
Hello, very nice article. I was not aware of GV but I am always interested in learning about old applications with features ahead of their time or with features that have never been matched. GV definitely fits this description. One would think new software developers would do well to study the past and learn something.
You might find “org mode” which runs under emacs interesting. It comes very close – so much so that I am wondering if the developers had some familiarity with GV.
http://www.orgmode.org
Kyle,
Thanks for the heads up about orgmode. I’ve heard of it before, but it seemed like a lot of bother to install emacs and orgmode, but since you’re comparing it to my beloved GrandView, well I just gotta try it. Thanks, again.
Steve
I’ve been following the outliner discussions for more than a decade. I still can’t believe there is no decent outliner for Windows. I use Emacs Org-Mode, but I still long for a an easy to use single plane outliner for Windows.
One thing I’d really like to know is why are there 10-15 decent outliners for Mac, but not one for Windows? Does OS X have some embeddable control that makes writing an outliner easier?
At this point I’m teaching myself C# so I can write my own outliner for Windows. Wish me luck!
Clint,
I don’t know why Mac seems to have more and stronger outlining applications than PC/Windows. But I will say that I’m not so impressed by what is available on the Mac. OmniOutliner is certainly serviceable and better than most anything for PC, and Tao might be the best of the lot. But none of these are as good as GrandView was, in my opinion.
Good luck with your project.
Steve
I would venture that a lot of writers/journalists work with a Mac, hence the need for outliners.
As to why not a single company decided to write a Windows application based on the great ideas of GrandView and EccoPro…
Vermonter 17032,
It is a shame that Org Mode is not a standalone application. For that reason I don’t recommend it as a solution, but with regard to GV some of Org Mode’s functionality seems similar enough to make me wonder if someone didn’t receive a bit of inspiration from GV. Over the last few months I have been giving Emacs a try (which is where I encountered Org Mode) mainly out of hope that I will have a cross platform text editor that will not become obsolete. (I am also fond of plain text for the same reason.) We shall see if the payoff is worth the – let’s just say – significant time investment
Cheers,
Kyle
For the PC, there are many outliners— and they meet different needs.
Inspiration, for instance, allows for multiple views of your outline— with inline blocks, headers only, and even notecards.
Literary Machine is built around the classic notecard paradigm for writers, and makes a decent outliner in conjuction with its notecards.
ConnectedText is a great personal wiki with outlining functionality.
Natara’s Bonzai is a cross platform outliner.
Wikipedia has quite a section on outliners, for windows, mac, and *nix.
And of course, there’s always the big monster outliner sites, like http://www.mind-mapping.org (“Software for mindmapping and information organisation”) and all the other dozen or so monster sites dedicated to OUTLINERS or Mind-Mappers (as mindmappers are just radial outliners).
Two and three panel outliners are the most common forms of outliners on the PC platform, but their are quite a few single pane ones out there, if you are willing to look.
@Paul – I’m only looking for a single pane (ideally multiple columns) outliner for Windows. I’m not looking for a wiki or a web-based application or a mind-mapping tool. The only applications I’ve found are ECCO Pro, Java Outline Editor (JOE), and now a new one (just found out about it today), UV Outliner. See my post about it at http://clintonsecurity.com/2009/10/30/uv-outliner/. I’m not affiliated with it, but it does look interesting.
A reader had suggested this link to me and boy, what a great GrandView post!
I became frustrated with the current state of single pane outliners for Windows so I decided to create my own. You can download Ume Outliner for free at http://www.getume.com
My main goal is to create a research tool for students. The focus will be on creating useful tools to help create essays and research papers.
Ume is still in its infancy and I just released 1.1. The new version 1.2 will be available in January 2010
Thanks for a great article!
Thank you for the comment. I’ll check out Ume Outliner.
I used PC-Outline in the 80′s to do my dissertation – it was crucial. I believe PCO morphed into GrandView – my diss was done and I did not need an outliner so badly. In the 20+years since I have never seen a Windows outliner close to as good as PCO.
GrandView was created by the author of PC Outline. Regrettably for us, he’s moved on to other things.
Actually, BrnownBag Software developed PC-Outline and Symantec developed GrandView. BrownBag later sued Symantec for copyright violations … and lost (of course). Ugly URL follows
http://books.google.com/books?id=rDAEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA21-IA16&lpg=PA21-IA16&dq=pc-outline+developer&source=bl&ots=9LJTx7UM8o&sig=ai6Ly-VffKwj_NtI312afIvqPu8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=_4xQUdCMA7Hi4AP8oIGoAQ&ved=0CFMQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=pc-outline%20developer&f=false
@Joe,
I’m not sure that PC Outline is the precursor to GrandView. For several years there was a Windows version of PCO from Brown Bag Software, although it is no longer available. Here is their web site:
http://www.atlantic-coast.com/
Thanks for reading my post.
Steve
The Windows version of PC Outline was written by a different author and had bugs and sometimes was very slow. GV had a very unique file format which undoubtedly had a lot to do with its functionality and speed.
I have missed GrandView for years. I agree—it was by far the best outliner ever created, and Symantec blundered (I think, but what do I know?) by not carrying it forward into the Windows world.
There’s a Web-based outliner, thinklinkr.com, that has some excellent features. I recently sent the developers my set of GrandView manuals (those were the days, eh? 3 manuals, including a reference manual of about 200 pages or so) in hopes that some GrandView features might be added. (Thinklinkr is still in beta.) I’m pleased to report that the developers really are impressed with GrandView capabilities, and so we may in time have a Web-based GrandView.
Hi, Leisure Guy,
I have my set of GV manuals, too. One of my treasured possessions.
Thank you for your comment.
Steve
At one point a few of us tried to get GV made open source. A fellow in England said Symantec wasn’t interested. Years later, I was able to locate the author, but he had just moved and his GV-related contracts and papers were packed in some unknown box.
P.S.
NoteMap is a sigle-pane outliner but has some simple and some serious bugs. (I lost a whole page of material.) Development ceased years ago.
Inspiration has a brand new version 9. However almost nothing new has been added to the outlining part. The diagram part has some new features.
Cassius,
Any chance of you contacting the author and asking him about “getting the band back together”?
I will reach out to a former Symantec executive.
THH
ThinkTank was my first tool of organizing my life after 3 X 5 cards with ink written notes and lists. First I plotted out in Think Tank my business transaction and then the rest of my life. I left ThinkTank because of a merger and went kicking and screaming into GrandView and never looked back.
I’ve tried Word, Inspiration 7.5 and 8, and MindManager, not the same. All have features that would make great add on to GrandView
Why not rewrite it?
Open source; community project
Use by many for all
THH
Grandview could make, size, and move windows before Windows existed. More importantly, though, the operator could get the work done without needing windows, without a mouse, without the hands ever leaving the keyboard, without waiting. Well, maybe we did have to wait a moment when it converted a document into a word processing format or into PostScript so our printer could produce it.
Before I had a computer assigned to me, I would take along Grandview, and run it on a computer at a plant I was visiting. My software and work files would all fit on a single floppy. People sometimes asked what I used to generate documents so quickly and I was pleased to give them a demo. The sight of an entry being “cloned” never failed to leave the observer speechless as I entered text that filled two different subheadings simultaneously.
GV ran on 80286 computers just fine. I wonder if I could acquire a used HP Palmtop cheaply and install GV and find a GV preservation society to join.
GV would be a tough act to follow. I wonder if the author ever had the chance to create another such masterpiece.
I hear good things about another orphan, Lotus Agenda. Tough learning curve though.
Lotus Agenda is truly wonderful—irreplaceable in fact, though they are trying to make lightning strike a second time with Chandler (http:chandlerproject.org). Still, Lotus Agenda was absolutely wonderful—if they had only brought it into Windows and perfected its printing capabilities.
Unfortunately, it was a product whose capabilities and uses were limited only by the user’s imagination, and apparently for many users that limitation was too stringent.
See http://www.whizfolders.com/features.aspx
I am a happy user, otherwise unaffiliated — think this has all or almost all the features you are looking for in a modern package.
Stephen,
Just came across the Outlining Software site as the result of a Google search, and found the link to the Atlantic article (and, hence, this blog entry). Wow–talk about a blast from the past.
Like Joe, I got started with outlining on PC Outline while in grad school (back in ’87). Loved that program! When I found a copy of GrandView in a clearance bin at a a computer store’s sidewalk sale (remember those?), I snapped it up and never looked back. BTW, it’s also my recollection that reviews of GV at the time (’88? ’89?) credited PCO as being GV’s progenitor (though I can’t guarantee that’s correct).
I used GV all the way through grad school for writing papers and collecting research notes (wouldn’t have made it quite so easily without it) and as a PIM until 1995, when I finally made the transition from DOS to Windows.
I still have my GV disks and manuals (hmm…maybe I better back up the disks before they fade…) and have no intention of getting rid of them (even if that’s just nostalgia on my part). I even ran GV on XP a few years ago, just long enough to export all of my outlines to tab-delimited files (to import into Word). I’ve used Word’s outliner since Word 97, but never found it to be more than a basic tool–certainly not a match for GV’s versatility.
Just for fun, I just fired up GV–still working on XP SP3 (though the window is awfully small on my 23″ widescreen monitor). Sigh…if only there was a true Windows-based equivalent.
You can change the font size.
Very interesting musings. Having now bought a UV-Outliner licence, I’d regard it as the most promising of the recent outliner developments. I’ve used almost everything that’s ever been developed throughout the Windows era – I never knew about GrandView, unfortunately.
One of my favourites for fast, simple work was ThoughtManager (used to synch between Windows and Palm, rather like a very simple version of Bonsai, and ran particularly well on the now defunct AlphaSmart Dana device), but it’s not been developed for years. Otherwise Ecco Pro was one of the greats – and was actually much more powerful than has been realised here. Hoisting is certainly possible, although it was a bit of a performance. I still use it occasionally, but more out of nostalgia than for any other reason.
Another very interesting if tangential development is TreeSheets, a fascinating spreadsheet-like concept (www.treesheets.com), under active development and very ingenious. Unfortunately Wouter doesn’t want to turn it into an outliner as such, although if enough people prod him, he’s willing to consider it!
Thanks for tips on Org-Mode and Ume Outliner. I’ll take a look.
@MadaboutDana
After using GrandView in DOS for about 7-8 years (mostly for grad school work, as I’ve noted previously), I was looking for a Windows replacement in 1996 and settled on Ecco Pro. At the time, EP did what I wanted–namely, serve as an outline-based simple project manager. EP was certainly more elegant than GV and had a bit more going for it in the PM arena. I found that using EP as a writing tool tended to reveal its shortcomings, however. Still, it fit better for what I needed during the late 90s (I used EP until about 2001, when a career change greatly lessened my needs for a PM tool).
Today, I don’t find myself wishing I still had EP (I sold it off shortly after I stopped using it, and there is currently a plethora of cheap PM tools that are actually easier to use than EP due to a tighter focus on PM). My ambitions for being a writer have me strongly longing for a Windows tool to match GV’s support for the writing process, however (and I still own GV, so I could go back to it if I don’t find a suitable replacement).
Thanks for such a nice writeup of Grandview. I own five copies that were used for project planning years ago. I still use the program and am looking for a replacement.
I’m still using Grandview and also looking for a replacement. Have you found one? Why can’t a bunch of diehard Grandview users get together, buy the rights or source code, and hire someone to rewrite a Windows version?
Sadly, I still have not found anything that adequately replaces Grandview. Various applications can do some of the things Grandview did, but nothing does it all as well. If I had to choose one piece of software that comes closest, it is probably OmniOutliner or Neo on the Mac… And there is nothing close for Windows.
I have used BBO for 25 years – beginning in law school and in writing every motion and many letters and outlining many thought trains ever since on an old pc. I have been recently looking to see where I could get another one of these for my new computers. It looks like I have found some people who know. I guess I will have to try Grand View. Thanks
Bruce
http://thinklinkr.com is out of beta now and looks damned good. It’s a Web 2.0 application, but it can import and export outline files. And the guys did put in quite a bit of GV-like capabilities. Check it out.
I was a trial lawyer for 22 years and found GV to be the most powerful tool for building a trial I had ever used. I could outline my case as I wanted, assigned categories by witness name, issues, and evidence, and then sort and print my trial binders in a nano-second. Extremely powerful software. I have been looking for an equivalent product since GV was discontinued and have failed to find anything even close to GV’s capabilities. I remember calling Symantec after it purchased GV and learned that GV was to be discontinued. No wonder Symantec eventually had to be sold–it managers could not recognize a brilliant product.
Anyways, if anyone has any ideas on something like GV that has both the outline and database feature of GV, please let me know. I prefer desktop apps and am not to thrilled about cloud computing for legal and confidentiality reasons.
I used GV when I worked for a finance company and it was the most helpful in my writing of proposals, plans and other projects. I even did an entire venture development proposal and presented it to senior management as an outline–they loved it since the business proposal was so logically laid out. When the company got sold and was in liquidation, and I got laid off, my manager gifted me the GV package and I still have it..
I had it running on my 486Dx2 system, which I still own and installed in on my XP laptop. Now that I am becoming a writer, I sorely need an outlining program, and want to see if I can get it to run on Vista. If all else fails, I guess I could fire up the old 486DX2 running NT and try to do my writing on that.
I have been searching for a GV workalike replacement for some time.
Has anyone ever contacted Symantec to see if they are willing to update GV? I don’t have the programming ability to update GV for windows, but perhaps some talented programmer could be found.
Symantec is strange company, they bought GV and let it die, they bought Partition Magic and let it die. Meanwhile their Norton Anit-virus sucks–I was a NAV user for so long, but finally gave up on it.
While I am at it, I like to mention that I also use BroadPage, a multi-windowing browser–it is great, but is now also defunct. Has anyone else used it?
Unfortunately, I know of no application for Windows that comes close to GrandView. The closest thing on any platform is probably OmniOutliner for the Mac.
You might find some helpful tips on running GV under newer Windows editions at the http://www.outlinersoftware.com site… run a search for GrandView or post a question. There are still a few die-hard GV users there.
Although it’s not an outliner per se, if you’re a writer, you should certanly look at Scrivener, which runs on Mac and Windows. (I use it on both machines, keeping the book’s files in DropBox.)
It has an outline view, and you can move the outline’s entries (“documents”) around, change their level in the hierarchy, etc. I also am an outline-oriented writer and have found it extremely useful.
Scrivener is a very rich program, and teh outline-oriented writing is only part of it. WARNING: Watch the training videos—don’t think you can just figure it out on the fly. I got myself into a mess that way.
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If you wanted to do a rewrite of GrandView for Windows, you’d really want to find the source code to the original. Anyone have any leads on that source code?
The game is afoot
The hunt is on
The challenge has been thrown down
Could social networks assist?
If data is found, will a PM come forward and carry the torch?
Let the emails go out
THH
Wow–I just stumbled upon this discussion. I completely agree that nothing developed since GrandView has come close to its power–both as an outliner and as a “personal project manager”. I actually continued to use it to organize both my personal and professional lives until about a year ago, when the problems getting it to run under Windows 7 proved insurmountable. (It ran fine as a DOS application under Windows XP. With Windows 7, getting it to run involved too many compromises.)
Hi, Bob,
Thanks for the comment. I’m impressed that you kept using GrandView for so long. It’s too bad you can’t still use it. What solution have you turned to?
Originally to OneNote, but it was clunky and cumbersome, and doesn’t quite get it when it comes to making an outline behave like an outline. I’ve recently switched to Noteliner, which I think I found as a result of your posting on http://www.outlinersoftware.com. It’s not truly a Windows GrandView, but it’s a lot closer to one than anything else I’ve found. The more I use it, the more I like it.
OneNote has its charms, but it is not a good outliner. I’m glad I could direct you to Noteliner. I think I first learned about it from someone else on http://www.outlinersoftware.com, but now I don’t recall. But there remains nothing that matches GrandView I’m afraid, which is downright confounding! The closest is probably OmniOutliner for the Mac, but it is so far from GrandView that I don’t even use it very often.
I sorely miss MORE, the Mac outliner that was similar to GrandView in many ways. I used it first years after it was abandoned by Symantec and made freeware, and never have found a replacement that works quite as well for outlining books. It had it all: cloning (so I could have scenes in multiple places in the outline–allowing me to list together all scenes featuring a certain character, say, and then also have the same scene in a part of the outline that listed the chronology of the story), inline text, hoisting, etc. Tinderbox has cloning, but it doesn’t have inline text so you can see the “meat” of all your notes at once. Inspiration has inline text but no cloning. I tend to use Inspiration more. Scrivener is wonderful but its outlining capability is the weakest part of the program. But if there was a modern version of GrandView or MORE (which no longer runs under modern Mac systems), I’d be very interested.
Jeff,
My first Mac experience was with a Mac II. I bought a copy of MORE trying to find a Mac version of Grandview, but I never warmed up to it. I’m not sure why. I now wish that I’d spent more (no pun intended) with it, because I’ve read so many rave reviews like yours. Like you, I remain on the look out for a modern GrandView. I do not understand why it seems so hard for software developers to include decent inline text in outlines. OmniOutliner also features inline text, but it is more appropriate for notes, not longer, serious writing.
Thank you for the comment.
Steve
I was an early adopter of GV when it first came out. I managed compter operations for a large local government agency and GV became essential to managing all aspects of my job responsibilities. I miss it terribly. This is the first time I engage in a discussion about GV. Glad I found this site.
Felix
Thank you for reading and commenting on my post about GrandView, Felix. It remains a mystery to me why such a great program was never ported to Windows, nor has its functionality been completely duplicated by any other application.
Maybe this explains it?
http://openjurist.org/960/f2d/1465/brown-bag-software-v-symantec-corp-l
The Brown Bag Software case was decided in Symantec’s favor in 1992:
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/SUPREME+COURT+UPHOLDS+DECISION+IN+SYMANTEC%27S+FAVOR;+BROWN+BAG…-a012628378
Thanks to both Ssmith and bethel95 for pointing out the lawsuit and its outcome. I was unaware of this. In some ways it seems even more inexplicable that after going to the effort and expense to win this legal fight that Symantec would drop GrandView just a few years later.
I also knew nothing of the lawsuits, and I much appreciate learning of them. Intellectual property rights are a two-edged sword, it seems. I imagine Symantec viewed the lawsuit as a sunk cost and made the decision to kill the product independently. That was a serious loss for the public.
You know, I wonder why there is not an open-source project to resurrect Grandview in a modern OS environment. Certainly this sort of communal volunteer effort has worked well for Firefox, for example, and I would think a superb outliner like Grandview would be an equally good/important/intriguing project.
Haven’t seen mention of Dave Winer’s OPML Editor. http://outliners.scripting.com/ has links, also to MORE
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